tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post8769984163338765840..comments2023-05-19T20:36:44.349+10:00Comments on i'd rather laugh than cry: just friends (married edition)ckjollyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-30997007691418865282007-10-10T03:42:00.000+11:002007-10-10T03:42:00.000+11:00Well, I'm very late to the party here. This has b...Well, I'm very late to the party here. This has been a very interesting thread to read. I have one primary opinion to state: If you are a single friend of someone of the opposite sex who is married, you had better make it your goal to become good friends with the spouse. To expect to continue a close friendship with only the one person is a selfish and thoughtless position. Doing so puts strain on that marriage and sets up a situation that can compromise a sacred relationship. <BR/><BR/>That was my "rule" in maintaining my friendships before I was married. I had a lot of close guy friends who got married before me. <BR/>I found that often the primary friendship shifted over to the spouse, and that happened because of the couple's own preferences, it seemed.Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02301219387023496893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-37256599075624942882007-10-09T23:24:00.000+11:002007-10-09T23:24:00.000+11:00a few people have said that placing rules like the...<I>a few people have said that placing rules like these on relationships is phariseeish. i disagree. when jesus attacked the pharisee's it was because of their self righteousness, not the rules. sure the rules were the outworking of self righteousness but rules aren't inherenetly bad.</I><BR/><BR/>Not true. He certainly ripped into their self righteousness, but he also ripped into their constant rule creation. See Mark 7 for a good example.<BR/><BR/><I>You wouldn't also be single would you Dani?</I><BR/><BR/>What exactly are you trying to achieve with a comment like that? Dani made some excellent points, you are free to counter them, but a passive attempt to undermine her is childish. Especially as an anonymous coward :)<BR/><BR/>I actually think the divide in opinion here would be more down to cultural background. Some cultures, particularly more conservative church ones, are very cautious (some would say overly cautious) about cross-gender relations outside of a marriage.Swilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058012743014243307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-80714438226897999372007-10-09T15:09:00.000+11:002007-10-09T15:09:00.000+11:00> Anonymous said...> It's interesting that the> si...> Anonymous said...<BR/>> It's interesting that the<BR/>> singles are all for "exclusive"<BR/>> guy-girl friendships in marriage<BR/>> and the married people are<BR/>> cautious of it.<BR/><BR/>Consider your trend bucked, sport. I've been married for some 5 years and think this is possibly the stupidest idea I've ever heard.<BR/><BR/>If one partner spending time alone with a friend (of either sex) is an issue, I'd strongly suspect that it's just an outlet for other issues within the marriage - eg lack of sexual fulfillment, jealousy etc.<BR/><BR/>Strong friendships make for strong marriages IMHO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-2942892846152306082007-10-03T10:19:00.000+10:002007-10-03T10:19:00.000+10:00That was a very impassioned plea, Dani. Thank you...That was a very impassioned plea, Dani. Thank you for including (towards the end) that the spouse ought not to be completely excluded from the friendship.<BR/><BR/>But, I fail to see how including the spouse in the friendship is excluding the friend. Rather, it appears to me that your point of view is rather exclusive. <BR/><BR/>How is intentionally (not randomly) inviting the friend over for dinner, going out to a movie, meeting up for lunch along with the spouse NEGLECTING the friendship? I should think that including the spouse somehow makes the friendship richer.<BR/><BR/>As for same-sex friendships ... right on ... sometimes we idolize those to the extent that the spouse is neglected. But if I'm sinning in that relationship, I don't think that it would have the opportunity to go so far as adultery.ckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-74526603075643841782007-10-03T10:17:00.000+10:002007-10-03T10:17:00.000+10:00You wouldn't also be single would you Dani?You wouldn't also be single would you Dani?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-18240552896207680722007-10-02T23:26:00.000+10:002007-10-02T23:26:00.000+10:00>>>i'm not going to go out of my way to meet alone...>>>i'm not going to go out of my way to meet alone with a married women, even if she's a great friend...that doesn't mean i'm going to avoid her if we meet randomly somewhere, it's just that i wouldn't intentionally try to meet her alone. to me its respect for their marriage<<<<BR/><BR/>How about respect for your friendship? <BR/><BR/>I can't quite understand how (for example) a guy could have a genuinely great friendship with a woman and then as soon as she gets married only chance meeting her randomly. Frankly it concerns me that the logical conclusion of this argument is that when marriage enters the equation important cross-gender friendships are relegated to <I>'Oh, if we happen to stumble across each other randomly somewhere then I won't cross the road to avoid her'.</I> <BR/><BR/>And in fact, why stop there? Sure, with friends of the opposite gender there is the issue of sexual propriety to consider. But same-sex friendships often reach an intimacy of a different kind which in it's own way can, when used improperly, be a threat to a marriage relationship. In that case, should we not be meeting alone with friends of the same-sex out of respect for the marriage relationship also?<BR/><BR/>I don't see how we are 'serving in love' our good friends of either sex by diminishing what was previously a really important friendship to the occasional random meeting should our paths happen to cross sometime after the marriage vows are said.<BR/><BR/>In fact, I think we move towards an idolatry of marriage when we see it as so exclusive that it automatically negates other very important relationships in our lives. Certainly, we must exercise discretion and wisdom so that we are beyond reproach (after all, for example, it's dead simple to have a one-on-one catch up with someone in a very public place). And certainly it is a relationships which should not be <B>totally</B> exclusive of a spouse. But at the same time shouldn't we be having respect for and working hard at <B>all</B> relationships- not just the marriage one as if it is the be all and end all?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-89680825994820666942007-10-02T10:17:00.000+10:002007-10-02T10:17:00.000+10:00well i never thought i'd have anything to say on b...well i never thought i'd have anything to say on blogs - i only knew what they were about 5 months ago. but this is a great discussion.<BR/><BR/>my general take on this is that i'm not going to go out of my way to meet alone with a married women, even if she's a great friend or her husbands a great friend. that doesn't mean i'm going to avoid her if we meet randomly somewhere, it's just that i wouldn't intentionally try to meet her alone. to me its respect for their marriage. i think jenna's points on this are gold!<BR/><BR/>a few people have said that placing rules like these on relationships is phariseeish. i disagree. when jesus attacked the pharisee's it was because of their self righteousness, not the rules. sure the rules were the outworking of self righteousness but rules aren't inherenetly bad.<BR/><BR/>if you set rules (boundaries) in relationships so you come across as morally tops, thats a problem. but if the rules (ie. not meeting a married person of the opposite sex alone) are to protect marriage and honour God, by all means stick by them.<BR/><BR/>i think Eph 5:13 is a great text on this. through Christ we have enormous freedom. its what we do with that freedom that counts. the passage says that we are too "serve one another in love". if that means sacrificing time alone with a married women/man to protect marriage, why wouldn't we do it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-15778126890838450262007-10-02T06:57:00.000+10:002007-10-02T06:57:00.000+10:00What an interesting conversation! May be time for ...What an interesting conversation! May be time for me to delurk.<BR/><BR/>I'm a single female and I have no problem at all spending time alone with my married male friends. The three that I can think of are such high quality Christians that there is absolutely no hint of impropriety when we are together. Generally, their wives join us at some point in the meeting, but we do spend time together either before or after.<BR/><BR/>I have drawn the line at spending time alone with only a couple of my married male friends: both men who expressed interest in dating me before they moved on and married their wives. That just wouldn't feel appropriate<BR/><BR/>The people I really don't feel comfortable hanging out alone with are other single men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-45794886598709518622007-10-01T22:20:00.000+10:002007-10-01T22:20:00.000+10:00It's interesting that the singles are all for "exc...It's interesting that the singles are all for "exclusive" guy-girl friendships in marriage and the married people are cautious of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-27841313585499484292007-09-30T11:33:00.000+10:002007-09-30T11:33:00.000+10:00This is a bit of another tangent (I'm sorry, I rea...This is a bit of another tangent (I'm sorry, I really am, but... I've got lots of work to do and this is just so interesting!). Actually, this is kinda in response to Dani's comment.<BR/><BR/>I think it's important for couples to maintain their friendships with their single friends even after they're married. Whether it be individually or together.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I'm coming at this from a single point of view, so perhaps when I get married I'll think "ha! now I don't have to hang out with single losers again! Let's do things with other couples! Woohoo!". But I somehow doubt it.<BR/><BR/>I think this because our friends are so important to us for a long period of time, and while there will naturally be some shift when our perspective on life changes significantly (marriage can do that), I think they should remain important.<BR/><BR/>Some couples I know are excellent at spending time with their single friends. Others are terrible. It's a mixed bag.<BR/><BR/>I suppose when you're a couple it's easier to hang out with other couples and talk about couple things while cooking something... coupley.<BR/><BR/>But to me, my friends (male and female) mean a lot to me, and I would not like to see that lost just because I choose to spend more time with one person. I understand that some relationships will naturally drop off, but that means I'd have to work harder to maintain the ones I really value.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, 2c on a tangent.<BR/><BR/>On topic? Marrying your best friend? Um... as long as it's done for the right reasons, not because you're sick of looking. Because if someone awesome comes along who you're insanely attracted to, how's that going to play out?Angushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18202460902644198009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-83728826181912137982007-09-29T23:03:00.000+10:002007-09-29T23:03:00.000+10:00a "just friends" sample chapter from marriablea "just friends" <A HREF="http://www.marriable.com/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,29/" REL="nofollow">sample chapter</A> from marriableckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-74961375285331530032007-09-29T20:02:00.000+10:002007-09-29T20:02:00.000+10:00An old youth group leader of mine once told us we ...An old youth group leader of mine once told us we <I>should</I> marry our best friend, because then you already know you relate well :)<BR/><BR/>I did it, and it's working out great so far (the fact I have a hot best friend also helps...).RodeoClownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14132852669233755447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-27783454090609120562007-09-29T16:28:00.000+10:002007-09-29T16:28:00.000+10:00I still don't understand. Is she saying that if yo...I still don't understand. Is she saying that if you are best friends with a chick, that wouldn't make a good marriage?<BR/><BR/>Seems a bit counter-intuitive. Do you just rely on raw sexual chemistry instead?Craig Schwarzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11156017639962303656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-12640123223836681752007-09-29T13:04:00.000+10:002007-09-29T13:04:00.000+10:00Well, the idea, I think (she said hesitantly knowi...Well, the idea, I think (she said hesitantly knowing the author might pop by at any moment) is that the nature of same-gender friendships is so different from the nature of cross-gender friendships as to merit a categorical distinction. Not that the two categories (friend and spouse) don't overlap quite a bit, but that they are at the root different <I>types</I> of relationships.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01926184833095262275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-20487161393301109722007-09-29T09:21:00.000+10:002007-09-29T09:21:00.000+10:00"Don't marry your best friend unless you're gay"Ho..."Don't marry your best friend unless you're gay"<BR/><BR/>How come? Whats the reasoning?Craig Schwarzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11156017639962303656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-42392939592554494092007-09-29T08:47:00.000+10:002007-09-29T08:47:00.000+10:00Ha! AWESOME.Ha! AWESOME.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01926184833095262275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-23288980037147144192007-09-29T08:40:00.000+10:002007-09-29T08:40:00.000+10:00Laura, you know Michael, ... author of Marriable ....Laura, you know Michael, ... author of Marriable ... the book that includes the chapter about not marrying your best friend unless your gay.<BR/><BR/>lolckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-75814465859281767642007-09-29T06:22:00.000+10:002007-09-29T06:22:00.000+10:00anon,I'll take a stab at the situation you mention...anon,<BR/>I'll take a stab at the situation you mentioned, though I certainly don't think I have all of the answers!<BR/><BR/>To be honest, if I was in your shoes, I think that would be the end of the relationship. I believe that it's very, very dangerous to maintain ties with people that you have failed morally with. The issue isn't that she failed, but that she wasn't willing to put those ties behind her. That's my take on it!<BR/><BR/>I'm loving reading everyone's thoughts on this! Some great points have been made!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-38746831537054108572007-09-29T04:45:00.000+10:002007-09-29T04:45:00.000+10:00I ran across this blog while doing a search for......I ran across this blog while doing a search for... I don't even remember.<BR/>Interesting post and discussion. I'll throw in a few cents' worth to add to everyone else's insightful comments.<BR/><BR/>Trust within a marriage relationship is important. Established friendships are important. Laying out <I>overly-rigid</I> rules to the fluidity of relationships tends to be counterproductive and Pharisaical.<BR/>General principles: Don't abuse the trust that your marriage should have, and don't open doors for either temptation, or accusations or wrong impressions.<BR/><BR/>However, I don't believe that this <I>never</I> allows for <I>any</I> exceptions. I generally try to make it a point to include my wife when visiting with old friends, unless circumstances don't allow (such as one time when I was out of town alone), or unless she isn't particularly interested in meeting or hanging out with the person (I have some weird and/or obnoxious friends).<BR/>Prior permission or notification is best, and secrecy is never a good idea, so even if I happen to forget to tell my wife about something beforehand, I always try to make it a point to tell as soon as I think of it so that she hears it from me first.<BR/><BR/>In any case, it always comes down to a heart issue -- either you're trying to be above reproach and honoring to your spouse, or your main priority is your own self.<BR/>(Sorry, this went longer than I'd hoped. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-52679656315738351392007-09-29T02:48:00.000+10:002007-09-29T02:48:00.000+10:00Oh, and Michael, I meant to give you kudos before....Oh, and Michael, I meant to give you kudos before. Excellent points.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01926184833095262275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-7076632071152086852007-09-29T02:47:00.000+10:002007-09-29T02:47:00.000+10:00I may say something about this on my blog, too. I...I may say something about this on my blog, too. It's something I struggled with forever. I despise the legalism that says, "Married men can only give side hugs to women, can't have a cup of coffee with a longtime female friend, etc." BUT, when a good friend of mine got married, I was abruptly faced with the fact that our relationship would never be the same again -- his number one priority was pastoring, leading, and caring for his wife. <BR/><BR/>As far as that goes, it is what it is. Men's relationships just change after they're married, de facto. Period. <BR/><BR/>What was that book, Christine, that had as a chapter title "Don't marry your best friend unless you're gay"? Anyway, while I have some quibbles with a few things in that book, I thing many of their opinions are helpful in sorting out marriage and friendship issues -- especially since the couple who wrote it married a bit later in life, and so had some long-standing opposite-sex friendships. <BR/><BR/>I think their general advice was to invest in same-sex friendships while maintaining (albeit on a slightly different level) opposite-sex ones. I followed that advice and I have never been so blessed by my friendships with both men and women.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01926184833095262275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-29085002867363911662007-09-28T19:24:00.000+10:002007-09-28T19:24:00.000+10:00A slight digression and from the viewpoint of a si...A slight digression and from the viewpoint of a single woman (just so you know my bias!)... if I were really good friends with a guy who got married and then, for the sake of his marriage, decided to cut off out friendship or reduce me simply to accquaintance status I would be absolutely devestated.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that the friendship should continue as it was before his marriage - I think that would be foolhardy and unfair to all involved (including his new wife). But I do think that he, and his wife, have some responsibility to continue fostering that friendship within the new context of their marriage. I'm not sure that <I>necessarily</I> means he never sees her alone, but I think it should <I>certainly</I> mean that his new spouse should respect the importance of that friendship and be a significant part of the process by which it morphs from what it used to be to what it needs now. <BR/><BR/>I just thought I would pipe up with these comments because this matter does not have implications for the newly married couple alone. It can be very hard for any (normally single) friend to try and work out the way in which their long-standing friendship needs to change upon the marriage of their friend. And so whilst <B>of course</B> that new wife/husband has an enormous responsibility to love and care for their spouse that doesn't mean that they don't also have a responsibility to love and care for dear friends of the opposite sex after they are married.<BR/><BR/>PS. I think something very similar also needs to happen when it is not a cross-gender friendship and am ever grateful to my best friend who made it very clear to me that my friendship remained very important to her after she was married... and also her husband who understood that and made a great effort to get to know me better and include me, in a special way, as part of their family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-29226882207545160712007-09-28T17:42:00.000+10:002007-09-28T17:42:00.000+10:00Yea! I love coming back to my blog to find a fasc...Yea! I love coming back to my blog to find a fascinating conversation!<BR/><BR/>Jenna - thank you soooo much for your insights. great to have you here.<BR/><BR/>Kath - lol ... you know how i told you when I was in Uni that I was a bit of a man-basher? Well, oddly enough at one stage I think I had more guy pals than girl friends. and I think I said the *exact* same thing you did:<BR/><BR/>"but it would be so boring to only have close female friends for the rest of my life! :P"<BR/><BR/>lol<BR/><BR/>No one's saying don't be friends with guys. Nor is it a matter of whether it's Christian or not. I'd think that secular men aren't too keen to have their wives frequently go mountain biking alone with a guy friend.<BR/><BR/>While, at this stage in your life, you may view this as pharisee-esque as a means of obtaining a higher standard of righteousness, I view it as lovingly protecting Mike and my marriage.<BR/>I'm concerned about male-female friendships (when one of the two is married) that are exclusive of the spouse rather than inclusive.ckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-4245654465261082762007-09-28T11:30:00.000+10:002007-09-28T11:30:00.000+10:00jenna, i agree with most of your points. i like th...jenna, <BR/>i agree with most of your points. i like the idea of having the freedom to meet up with others if the situation comes up, however having behavioural patterns that say you are a couple. <BR/>what about friends that have different interests/hobbies to your spouse? should you insist on building those friendships as a couple?kathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01909632924695409997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-286992889505098297.post-49305274208477485972007-09-28T08:30:00.000+10:002007-09-28T08:30:00.000+10:00I had a girlfriend who insisted on catching up wit...I had a girlfriend who insisted on catching up with old boyfriends for coffee (without me)... no problem right? Until you realise that she'd slept with most of them before she was a Christian.<BR/><BR/>I had a BIG problem with this. I tried time and again to explain this to her. It was a point of contention in our relationship and we fought about it constantly. What would you have done?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com